Picture the scene.
We're at a local attraction. My boys are playing with various bits and pieces. Luke in particular is enjoying himself playing with these toys. He is really enjoying it and wanting to play with all of the toys. So I step in and have a conversation with him about sharing and about how it is much fairer if all the children have one toy and then everyone can have a go. This conversation goes on for a while as we have to repeat the lesson many times, it is a difficult one to learn after all.
Another small boy steps in and grabs Luke's toy, meaning he now has two toys and Luke has none. Luke looks at me in anguish. He knows that he can't just grab it (good boy, although had I not been there he probably would have taken that exact action). But the little boy isn't giving it back. I wait for a little while but nothing seems to be happening. Luke is becoming a bit upset, his toy has been grabbed off him and not this boy has two and he has none and That Isn't Fair.
I take a deep breath and say to the boy, in a gentle, conversational tone
You've got two toys and this boy hasn't got any. Don't you think it is a good idea to give him one and then everyone will have one and that's fair.
Out of nowhere swooped the mother, hissing
If I want my child disciplined then I'll do it myself.
I really was taken aback. I mean I didn't really think that was disciplining him, I was just pointing out that he should be sharing the toys, particularly as he'd just grabbed one off Luke.
Having spent a few years in Bosnia, where the mantra really is 'It takes a village to raise a child' and where everyone disciplines everyone's children, I genuinely don't have a problem with other adults letting my children know that their behaviour is not acceptable. Often it isn't and I feel that having other people tell them that reinforces my message about how to behave.
Clearly there is a line that can't be crossed. I would have a problem with someone physically slapping the boys or really shouting at them. But a quiet word pointing out the error of their ways. Not the slightest bit of an issue.
I felt very angry with this woman. I felt that the message she was giving to her son was that it was OK to grab a toy and not to share it as long as he did it where she couldn't see it. I felt that she was telling him that he didn't need to listen to what another adult said, and wondered how that would translate for the little boy when he went to school.
What do other people think. I'm genuinely interested to know, did I overstep the mark? Obviously you only have my side of the story here, but was I out of line?
She sounds quite unpleasant, did you say anything in reply? I hope so.
ReplyDeleteI'm with you completely, and would fully expect another mother/adult to step in and take control of a situation if I weren't around for any reason.
ReplyDeleteAll that mother has done is to say that it's OK for him to snatch and not to listen to adults.
This is exactly why discipline is lacking so much these days and why our young people have no respect for their elders or members in authority. I would say you were right to say something, more people should. That mother obviously spoils her child and is doing him absolutely no favours. I suspect she will be plagued with bad school reports and behavioural issues and I wonder who she will blame. I doubt it'll be herself...
ReplyDeleteCJ xx
Not out of line at all, in my opinIon. I've had many similar experuences, sadly. Doesn't stop ne doing it, though....hope you aren't deterred. We can't expect our kids to magically know h
ReplyDeleteYou were completely right! Explaining to a child about sharing isn't discipling. The mother should have backed you up. Take heart that she is the one with the problem - and her child. But perhaps he will learn something from your action...
ReplyDeleteI would have done the same as you, you weren't discplining him you were just pointing out that maybe he could share the toys. Clearly his mum was a bit defensive about it and embarrassed she didn't address it before you did. But some parents are hopeless at these things and I have many blog posts on the topic which I can't really write. A child very close to me and the same age as my daughter snatches stuff all the time. His mum doesn't do anything about it and just says, "Yeah he does that." She seems to think it's endearing and shows 'personality'. A child is never too young to be told not to snatch, it drives me MAD. I'm sorry you ended up feeling bad about this as you shouldn't.
ReplyDeleteAnd we wonder why so many children and young people have no respect for adults? It's because their parents have told them not to take any notice of authority because 'nobody tells us what to do'. We see it all the time. Children know their rights, but not their responsibilities as a citizen. Adults in authority (police, teachers, etc.) have their hands tied because the merest hint of anything untoward can ruin a career.
ReplyDeleteChildren are sent to school with no regard for property, they break things without a second thought and anyway it's not theirs so it doesn't matter. And anyway, their mum and dad will buy them whatever they want. Some children's behaviour at even primary school is appalling - they don't know how to share, have no manners, don't know how to eat with a knife and fork, are rude, aggressive and manipulative. And they can do it all because their parents 'will not have anyone telling their kids off'. It makes my blood boil. I better shut up before I explode.
Yes, you were in the right to step in and I would hardly call what you were doing discipling anyway, I would call it being fair.
You did the right thing, for sure. I don't think there's anything wrong in explaining something like that to another child. Especially when it's something as fundamental as sharing toys! The other mum should have stepped in and backed you up - no wonder there's so little respect in the world. Your post has reminded me that I must be careful around other children! I'm a primary school teacher and working on children's behaviour is kind of 'in-built'!
ReplyDeleteGod, I've told kids off even before I was a mum. Like kids that ran out into the street to retrieve footballs and could have got themselves killed etc.
ReplyDeleteI would have done what you did. I never shout at other kids - but I do talk to them or mention things. I haven't yet had a reaction like that although I may be heading that way - the kids sometimes play with a child who has got both of them in to trouble with me over the weekend. And the second one involved them DEMANDING to play in our house then trashing the playroom in the space of 15 mins then convincing Missy to ignore me asking them to tidy up any mess and OMG, I have never SEEN such mess in all my life. The child concerned wanders around all over the shop with their sibling at will and seems to do what the hell they want.
I would go s far as to say you were too nice. Given that the child had grabbed whatever your son was playing with, you could easily have gently removed it fro his grubby little paws and pointed out that it wasn't his to take. (Or words to that effect). And really, if you'd done it that way (says she with perfect hindsight) the mother couldn't have accused you of trying to discipline her child, just taking back what was rightfully not his.
ReplyDeleteOn a deeper note, I have an English friend here in the States (where you never intervene with such a bratty child) and she has no problems in the park about marching a child around and asking who he/she belongs to? How can she do that? Simple - she doesn't really care what the other mother/nanny thinks. And a lot of what you said (and most of us feel) is how the other adult is going to perceive us. Time to shed that fear I think!
You weren't "disciplining". You didn't make him sit on a naughty chair, or give him time out, or spank him, or dock pocket money. You were encouraging social behaviour.
ReplyDeleteOr something like that anyway.
I agree with lota; I don't think you were 'disciplining' this child per sae, you were simply trying to suggest a way in which the children in that group could get on with each other in a peaceful manner. The fact remains,that the actions of the other child had a negative impact on your own boy and that, in (imho) gave you every right to intervene. Let's face it, if your own child had not been the victim of his actions, you would probably not have stepped in. From another perspective, there is often an element of hidden guilt in aggressive 'defensive' behaviour and perhaps the other mother was a little embarrassed by the situation but did not know how to deal with it .. ?
ReplyDeleteMJM
What did you say to that mother when she swooped in? Perhaps she was embarrassed, but as the general consensus says, you really didn't overstep the mark. I once suggested to a small boy in a soft play center that it wasn't right to throw balls at people's faces as they could get hurt. That was after he threw a ball in my face - twice.
ReplyDeleteYou didn't overstep the mark at all, nor disciplining him. You were just talking to him and telling him what his mother should of been telling him.
ReplyDeleteI would have done exactly the same, and I agree with the others, it's not disciplining him at all. If my children ever do anything to another child I tend to be over the top apologetic to the other mother and make them apologise too, just to diffuse any tension, even if they haven't done anything particularly wrong.
ReplyDeleteYou should have thrown the toy at her.
ReplyDeleteYou did the right thing for sure.
ReplyDeleteAsking the little boy to share is hardly out of line. If you hadn't said that your little one would think 'Hey he got away with maybe I'll try'
What is wrong with some people!!!
You can sit back and know your little one will grow up with the right values and her's well.....
I will be slightly off message to everyone else. Talking to the boy was nice but I would suggest that it could be interpreted as trying to parent him. The better way would have been to remove the toy from him and reinforce to your child about sharing so that he could hear. If his mum parachuted in at that point you could then say about her son snatching.
ReplyDeleteI'm really shocked for one thing that the woman objected, and for another that she reacted so vehemently. I would - have in fact have - done precisely the same. I agree that you weren't disciplining, you were making a suggestion. Perhaps this woman over-reacted because her son is always winding up in these situations. You didn't do wrong, and don't let it put you off another time.
ReplyDeleteOur friends and neighbors are encouraged to let our son know if he behaves in an anti social way. They do and he is better off for it. I would do the same as you, although I might not have restrained myself from swatting her with the toy. Good for you.
ReplyDeleteCongratulations, you've just met the mother of a future rioter.
ReplyDeleteYou put it extremely well - to him, to us. Her problem. Altho am duch a fragile soul that had she been me I'd've been MORTIFIED that another adult got there first. One of the hardest thing about having a dog is the endless apologising on her behalf. Acquiring kids, dogs, a motorway to humiliation. Don't Do It!!
ReplyDeleteI'm quite shocked by her behaviour - I'm another one of the view that having other adults reinforce discipline helps. In fact we have asked close friends to step in if they feel that they want to - its all part of them being a part of our childrens' community
ReplyDeleteAnd yes, by saying that she effectively said she condoned that behaviour
Another one here who is happy to 'discipline' other children, though not necessarily seeing it as that's what I'm doing, like you I would consider this a "quiet word" -- and in your situation just there I would have had no problem in saying to the mum that perhaps she should have or would like to point out to him then that it's good to share, said with a big smile or something. I think I would have to "suck it up" if someone told off my girls - and they would hopefully have the good grace to apologise for whatever it was. I remember being in a cafe years back and an older lady saying to me how pleased she was to see someone "disciplining" their children - I was only telling them to sit down! I wrote a piece about this a few years back, it may have been for the NSPCC, I'm sorry I think the link has long gone (obviously I understand you are boud to feel bereft by this...:)) But Jo from slummysinglemummy wrote about why she *can't* tell off other people's children at Ready for Ten a few weeks back.
ReplyDeleteNel - guttingly I apologised. I've been kicking myself ever since!
ReplyDeleteVBC - Exactly. I did wait to see whether anyone would step in as well.
CJ - I do think that she is priming him to not respect anyones authority.
Write Now - I do have a tendency to step in, but this is the first time I've been called up on it.
Vanessa - hope so.
Emily O - Thanks. x
not Supermum - It really does worry me. And I'm so cross with myself for apologizing to her. GRRR,.
ReplyDeleteLagos Mum - I see it as trying to back up parents. But I guess not everyone does.
kateab - scary stuff. how will they ever learn about boundaries?
expat mum - that's what I need to do - not give a tinkers what the other people think.
iota - I like that, encouraging social behaviour.
metajuggling - you are right, it was really discipling him. maybe you are right, she wasn't watching at the time so she may have felt a bit defensive.
ReplyDeleteTanya - yikes. What did you say?
Picking Oranges = she certainly didn't think that was the case.
NVG =- me too, I always presume that mine have been horrors and it is their fault.
Owen - tempted, sorely tempted.
Ali - thanks for the support.
Spence - Good approach. I like it.
Heather D - I shall carry on intervening, although possibly with Spence's approach.
ReplyDeletelegend - takes a village to raise a child and all that.
kat - oh dear, I do hope not...
Milla - I'm mortified constantly! But I can't see everything that my lot get up to and I liek the idea that there are other sets of eyes out there that will keep mine on the straight and narrow!
Muddling - she really did. sigh.
Linda - I think people don't like sucking it up. I think they feel that their children ought to behave beautifully at all times and by having someone else step in we are somehow criticising them. People need to remember that children have a job to test boudaries, they will do it all the time, and adults have a job to set them!
I'm thankful for another adult backing up my lines. It often helps more than my words can!
ReplyDeleteYou weren't disciplining though, just guiding.
I would object to disciplining as this is interference in my view. To me, disciplining is a serious talk or telling a child off (while you were just pointing out and suggesting a positive behaviour) But my objection would not be snatching a child away but simply taking over with my way of dealing with the situation. I object for instance when people tell my daughter that she shouldn't climb here or do something there because she could fall/hurt herself (I wouldn't let her if I thought it was a risk and I know what she can safely do).
In fact I once interfered because a child was doing something that wasn't safe in my view and the mother of the child (a friend) had to tell me clearly to let go of her child. I knew I'd overstepped but I also explained that I couldn't help myself and I apologised.